“We must believe in free will – we have no choice”
~Isaac Bashevis Singer
My husband and I went to the movie “The Adjustment Bureau” recently. I had to see this movie because, as my husband explained when telling his brother about it, it’s about free will. Free will is something I’ve been thinking about for a very long time.
In the movie Matt Damon’s character is told he doesn’t have free will, except in small matters; that when he goes off a predetermined path, a little “adjustment” is made, with him none the wiser, by members of the Adjustment Bureau. He has to decide what he believes and his actions will be based on those beliefs just as our actions are based on our beliefs. I won’t discuss the movie any more since you may not have seen it yet, but be warned; the comments may give parts of the story away!
At times we may wish there were such a benevolent administrative body looking out for us and making sure everything was going “right” in our lives but would we want to have that at the expense of our free will?
What do you think about free will? Do we have it? How would you define it? For myself, I’d rather believe it is me who runs my life. Even if I don’t always immediately choose the best path, even if things don’t go exactly the way I want them to, I want my life to be my life. I want to be the one in charge.
What or who do you think is running your life and to what extent? What do you believe? Do we have decision making power in everything, or are we children of fate, given freedom within certain perimeters? If our fate has been determined before we arrived in this life who determined it? Is it luck by which our lives operate or is there something else at play?
Free will or fate – who or what’s in charge in your life?
photo credit: Mike Baird
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Hello Lori!
I suppose we have the free will underneath, somewhere. It may be hidden and we don't always recognize that because we keep making up excuses, in order to avoid some things we would wish to do. Oops, I made this too complicated :D
What I'm trying to say that although we do things by the book (for some reason it is usually the law book) our lives are controlled by the powers that be (no, I'm not referring to any Gods here) and act as humanoids most of time, we have a freedom to make choices. Well, guess thats a bit naive for me to talk like this when there are millions of people on this planet who don't have any rights or even a free will...
Anyway, I have decided to take control of my own life and act like I have that free will. Only time will tell if I can live up to my words. I'll keep you posted on that :)
@Jani Hautamäki Acting like you have free will - taking control, that has to make a difference, no matter what you believe, right?
@Lori Our will can't be controlled, I would think..it is completely another thing how we put our will to work for us. In some other countries it might be impossible without someone getting hurt. I can't even imagine how they must feel..:/
Lori, glad you didn't give away the movie. :) I have been wanting to see The Adjustment Bureau. It looks fascinating and I wanted to see it before they delayed the release. But with three small kids under the age of six, we don't get out to movies very often. :) But, I digress. I like this post. I think we have the free will to take our lives where we want them to go. I have used my own life as a practical experiment through the years. I have lost it all and found a way to build my way back up. And I'm convinced that with enough determination and hard work, you can do anything you set your mind to.
@Bryan Thompson Hey Bryan! It's interesting how you say "I have used my own life as a practical experiment". This is how we all learn whether or not we're aware that we're using our lives to do it! I bet having three kids teaches you a lot about using the will! My children have taught and still do teach me a lot about free will!
Do you have a specific way to use your will to manifest things in your life?
Wow, looks like quite the party. I've been pretty much out of pocket since Thurs but wanted to say hello. I'll catch your Monday post.
Hope you had a great weekend.
Of course I have to quote another Matt Damon movie, Ivictus and the poem by the same name by William Ernest Henley, "I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul." I believe in serendipitous encounters, strokes of good fortune, and outright fool's luck at times, but I firmly believe that it is my own actions (or inaction) that creates the series of events that follow to create such events. I certainly do not weigh every decision as if it will be life changing because let's be honest, most of our daily decisions will have negligible effects on the outcomes of our lives. However, we cannot ignore the fact that even the most meaningless choice might drastically alter our lives. Think of the folks who were minutes late arriving to work on 9/11/01 or the couple that met crammed in the back of coach class on a transcontinental flight.
I find it very hard to do, but it is because life is so unpredictable and the best thing may be awaiting around the next bend, that I try to always maintain a positive disposition no matter how bleak my circumstances may seem at times.
Also, when we remind ourselves we are in control and not manipulated by some universal force, then we can recognize we can certainly make the best out of any scenario. A good friend once told me, and I hold this advice very dear, there are no right or wrong decisions in life, just decisions that we make and then learn to live with.
Hope all is well on your end, Lori -- and I'm definitely putting seeing this movie on my to do list. Cheers!
@JamesDBurrell2 Hey Jamey! It's nice to see you weighing in! Funny that you should bring up another Matt Damon movie because I was thinking of a third movie he was in where free will came up! Have you seen Dogma? He and Ben Affleck did it in 1999. It was a random rental I picked up back when I first started thinking about free will and was surprised to see that as everywhere else in my life, the topic was coming up in random movies I was renting! I have never seen Ivictus but will!
So you believe we ourselves create the serendipities that so many people have referred to in this discussion. That's interesting and I wouldn't disagree because I think we're responsible for that and more (all!) It's not fun to be feeling like you're in control, though, because that is a LOT of responsibility. I think we're like children learning how to use this and most of us are learning by trial and error. Some have mastered more of it - we hear about them! The character in Ivictus is an example (I watched the trailer) reminding himself that "I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul." He has some different awareness than most every-day people possess.
I like your friends take on this - that there are only decisions we need to learn to live with. Let me know what you think of the movie - just come back here and post it as a reply. I wonder what you'll think of the way the movie presents free will!
Lori, looking at, and still figuring out how to interact here. Seems we started posting at right about the same time last year. I saw this post the other day and knew I had written a diary entry on the same subject. Not sure this progresses the conversation with your readers but here is a link. I don't know how to cut and paste the whole thing..
http://johnrfitz.blogspot.com/2011/04/free-will.html
I apologize if people can't read this or have to click through to do so.
My basic take follows the discussion of free will as the ability / responsibility to "decide" but with the added knowledge in all of us of knowing right from wrong. Often knowing what is right influences our decisions. We are free to decide whether to follow this knowledge. Fate resides in our interpretation of the choices we have made rather than the predetermination of those choices.
@Everyman Hi Everyman (is your name John?!) I went to your blog - thanks for putting the link. It worked just fine. You posted about Free Will on my 25th wedding anniversary!
Bruce Springstein! Wow!
You believe we have the capability do decide what to do in life and that fate is what we experience as a result of our interpretation of those choices. Interesting take on this! Thanks for sharing it.
How is your free will working out for you in your life so far?
I dare and I CARE. Wow ! 100 comments. U go Lori !
Lori, Great topic and comments. I believe it is a combination of both. We are given free will to make choices and decisions and some things do happen for a reason. Also believe , we all have a purpose in life. We find it at different times in our lives. It took me a long time to "Get It" but I feel I am on the right path now. It's all about Gratitude, helping others and making a difference. So today and every day, I try and spread the message of C.A.R.E. :
Communicate, Appreciate, Respect, Encourage.
HUG ? Ha !
Al
@Al Smith
I think there are great reasons why it takes us 'time' to get it - - the 'time' it takes is what makes us, US!
if we never made mistakes, if we never experienced heartache, or disappointment - we would not be fully able to appreciate the greatness we are given!
@StaceyMJCouturier Thanks Stacey and oh so True. It takes what it takes.
@Al Smith That's a good message Al! . So you believe there is assistance, and we have the free will to make choices an decisions. So nice to be able to find your purpose! Gratitude and CARE-ing! High Five! ;-)
@Lori Thanks Lori. Another High 5 ? I feel a Hug coming soon !
Woo Hoo ! Working on setting up blog and new ppt. Good things coming soon.
Luv your posts and comments.
HI Lori, I am so pleased to be here. Martin sent me as we recently bumped into one and other in cyber space!
this is my kinda post!
Well, I think it's been said, but I'll say it again. I know according to my faith that God gave us the freedom to choose. I do believe that there are 'certain things' that he has in mind for us. ie: he spares some people and not others from things like accidents, etc. as one of your commentators stated happened to him.
I also believe that our 'end' is planned, but wont happen till we have completed our task.
I do also believe that everything happens for a reason, even the painful events. We of course get angry and say 'how could there possibly a reason for X"... I feel one day we will find out, but perhaps not on earth.
I feel we are in control of most of our lives, that is why we fall, get back up and learn from many of the mistakes and choices we make.
I think sometimes God puts something in place ... something that is supposed to happen.... but ultimately we have a choice as to whether to take advantage.
is this sounding like an outline for a blog post?? sorry for the long comment.
I love this kind of food for thought.
Thanks for the great read and opportunity to share.
Jayne
@jaynekopp
Jayne you mention that you feel God has given us freedom to make choices - but you also feel that each of our personal demise is already planned?
So then really - if there were/is the case - then we wouldn't have 'freedom' of choices ultimately - because regardless of our 'choices'. If it's our 'end' - then it's over?
HI Stacey, well... I think while we move through life, we have the freedom of choice, however most of us do not plan our 'ending'... as that is just something that happens (whether we like it or not). So as far as 'the demise' being planned, that's just a given, but the way we conduct ourselves "I believe" is our choice.
Naturally, I don't have the indisputable answers, it's just something that I surmised personally. Right or wrong, I don't know. :-) just my own feelings.@StaceyMJCouturier
@jaynekopp Hi Jayne! Welcome to Life, for instance and thanks for your [not too long] comment on free will!
I'm with you on " everything happens for a reason" I've always believed that. You think the reasons aren't always revealed in this life? That's the part that makes me crazy! And sparing some the "accident" and not others does it to me too.
Yes, we can get back up and choose from among the options. That seems to be the general consensus here, so you're not alone in believing this. I wonder where we got these ideas, though? I wonder who was the first one to sort it all out and interpret this teaching. Do you know where the concept of free will originates Jayne? Anyone else?
By the way, if anyone is having trouble getting their comment to post, contact me through the Contact page. There seems to be a problem getting some through on this post, THAT'S ironic! :o
HI Lori, well, I suppose and this is only an opinion: that our creator gave us free will. I think it is something that is :born in us, instinct, so to speak. I believe that there are many 'things' that we, as humans just 'know'... without having to be told. There are many things we 'don't know' the answer to, just the same as we don't know all the 'reasons' for things.
Many of my own opinions boil down to faith, and just knowing that we were made with a certain amount of intelligence. (Not sure if I'm making sense or not).
Its kind of like Maternal instinct... its just there. Nobody can tell us how to behave or be, once we have children, we just automatically 'know' what to do.
Not sure Lori, if this was the best analogy;.. but I don't think it was a 'human' that taught us. @Lori
I wonderf if the 'type' of comment is causing the problem posting (I'm teasing - I don't believe that).
While I do believe that things may/may not happen for a reason - I also believe that there is evil in the world. Evil that God cannot change (otherwise he would and we wouldn't have hell & damnation)...so though things may/may not happen for a reason - sometimes SHAT just happens (perhaps for no reason), or for a 'reason' for someone ELSE! (not us)....
cause otherwise, it's a complicated puzzle that the 'event' (whatever it may be), would be 'for a reason' for susie, jane, Jim and Kim's Dad... hmmm - LOTS of complicated 'for a reason' with everyone involved.. Does that makes sense? (or i'm I spewing out jibberish today?)
@jaynekopp Faith is a much better thing to believe in than Fear... :D
Stacy, no doubt there IS evil in the world. I suppose a lot of it has to boil down to faith and personal beliefs. I choose to believe in my faith, but even so still have many questions.
As a matter of fact, I didn't always 'know' what I believed... I actually took a prophecy course about 12 years ago... and while I still don't know all the answers, I learned enough that I felt somewhat satisfied... and drew conclusions.. that for now seem to be acceptable.
Perhaps it is best we don't know everything. That might put us in fear.
I would rather choose to have faith, as:
Faith is something we believe might happen, with no evidence that it will.
Fear is something we believe might happen with no evidence that it will.
@StaceyMJCouturier
*ARGH*
This is too...too...too "something" for me to answer, Lori. LOL
Everytime I think it's free will - fate intervenes ;)
Do a post on serendipitous events as you mention here somewhere. It's more fun to read (and maybe share my story on serendipity :P) and say "ooooh! That's neat! What are the chances, eh?"
LOL!
Kelli
@youngks OK that's just too bizzarre - I nearly wrote just that in the comment to @StaceyMJCouturier below. We should do a post on serendipities. I'll have to think about that. It seems to be coming up in the comments a lot. You have a story...?
Stranger, still, some of the comments got inadvertently blocked by Livefyre's spam blocker - one by @Faryna who Tweeted that fate had intervened and blocked his second response! LOL
What are the chances of that?
So you could give a quick yes or no - free will - do you believe we have it?
@youngks @StaceyMJCouturier This comment is from@Faryna Seems we're having trouble getting some comments through on this post - what are the odds! OK - so Stan says...
Serendipities, synchronicities and miracles – they reveal that life is not as mundane as our everyday life informs us. It should make for a popular post.
I believe in both Lori. I believe God has given us free will to choose. God gave us the choice to think, as no other creature in His kingdom. It is absolutely all up to us.
I think along the path of our lifetime He intervenes, placing people or events along the way to guide us to His will. When I was 16, I was involved in a serious auto accident. My parents arrived at the Emergency room at the hospital. My mom said she did not recognize my swollen and bloodied face among my other injuries. I was in critical condition and in a coma for a week.
After that, I wondered if it was God's will. A few years later I discovered that it was and I was grateful. Through the years I have been thankful for surviving that accident and the thousands of people I have had the opportunity to meet along the way. God had other plans for me.
@JimK I'm sensing a long story hidden between your words Jim! You're talking about serendipitous events and grace. So there was fate and free will in your story?
@Lori @JimK There is a long story hidden in there Lori. It took 10 years and my positioning from Ontario to BC to realize the fate part. And the free will was mine to accept. When it happened, I realized it was all part of His perfect plan.
@JimK
I agree wholeheartedly Jim...and I do believe that sometimes things happen for reasons we can't even begin to understand...though try as we might sometimes.
@StaceyMJCouturier @JimK and Stacey, I always wonder if along the way, if I made a difference in someone's life. I'm not trying to sound "greater than myself." But that could be applied to anyone. By removing yourself from the equation, how would the world be? The World without Me >(You)
@JimK @StaceyMJCouturier Jim!!! you're making a difference in my life (others too unless I miss my guess) every time you share your thoughts here. I'm always happy to see you show up and I know your contribution to the conversation will enrich it.
Stacy, I agree @StaceyMJCouturier @JimK
This comment has been deleted
@Faryna THIS is the comment from Stan!!!
Our answers tend to reveal the depth of our entangled confusion. Our questions contain the possibility of our release. Not completely – mind you. Unless, I suppose, you are a “Buddha” or a saint. Which I am not – though I was once mistaken for a reincarnated Buddha. [laughing]
In a manner of speaking, the intrinsic value of our questions lay in our own dedication to a pursuit of its expanding illumination. I hate it when the prose gets in my way. I don’t do it intentionally. [grin] It just seems to happen in conversations like these. It comes bubbling up like a shaken can of pop. It gets sticky. Yuck. I’d just like to reveal it with one masterful and forceful cut.
To answer your intimate question: I do not go quietly amidst the noise and haste – if that’s what you mean. [smile] I am vain and bitter. And I have not always been gentle with others – less so with myself. Despite much counsel to the contrary. i have received peace as a constant companion and yet I ignore it – most of the time. For peace is not useful to ambition. [grin]
There is still too much of me in me and not enough of God. But I’m in the Catch 22 – stuck between the rock and a hard place. There’s just enough God – like rays of light breaking through the cloud, but still much darkness. And the kicker is that I instinctively hold on to the darkness like a child to it’s mother’s leg, curious and afraid at the same time.
You can’t rush these things. But you can choose well as you learn patience. And you can reflect on them. I’m doing this in my novel. If you’re interested, it’s here: http://wp.me/pbg0R-98
I lived in Israel during the summer of 1985. I was a 16 year-old kid who wasn't sure if he believed in G-d. But I had some experiences there that changed me forever and made me think that maybe something more was going on.
Fast forward to 1995 and I am back in Israel making plans to move there. Now I am hair short of 26 but pretty sure that I believe. I have several other experiences that push me, but I am still hesitant. With the birth of my children I was convinced.
In general though I don't get real deep with religious discussions because someone almost always ends up being offended and it usually isn't me. There is a lack of middle ground there.
But when I think of fate and free will I cannot help but think of a few other moments in life where things happened. Moments where special and important people came into my life in peculiar ways that make me wonder if something more could be behind that, but to me that is closer to the discussion about signs.
Anyway, I believe in free will. The words I type here are because I choose them not because they're chosen for me. I know that one day I will die as will all of the people I love and those I do not. I can't say when that will be.
But I can say that in my world we all make the choices about how we live our lives. I don't believe in the secret or laws of attraction. I have had moments where I made boatloads and it had nothing to do with me wanting it, it just happened.
I have buried several friends who died far too young. Cancer took them and car accidents took some others. I don't believe that they died for a reason- it just happened.
@TheJackB
I'm sorry for your losses. Sometimes POOP (ya know what I mean to say) just happens.
I lost my first daughter after only having her in our lives for 9 very short days. But I never lost my faith, as I know many people do when they lose a loved one, or child...as they struggle to 'understand'. But I don't believe we are supposed to understand everything.
I do choose to believe that it happened for a reason. Whether it's because God knew that with her being so small/premature, she'd never enjoy a good life here on earth, or was it so my husband and I could go on and have the two beautiful daughters I have now..and what they may accomplish in their lives. Perhaps Jeneca (my first child) may have suffered from things that may or may not have allowed me to parent her properly. I don't know any of these things...
But I do choose to believe that I have my own personal guardian angel up in Heaven...watching out for her Momma and her two little sisters!
@StaceyMJCouturier I'm sorry for your loss Stacy. You are a strong woman and thank you for sharing.
@JimK Thanks Jim, my faith helped me and I had an incredible supportive spouse and family... God does provide what we need...
@StaceyMJCouturier Faith is a very personal thing and I think that it is great when people can rely upon it. It is not my place to tell you what to believe or to try to convince you to think as I do.
I can't imagine how hard it is to lose a child. I am very sorry for your loss. I don't think that there is anything wrong or unreasonable with what you said. Actually I wrote a post (http://www.thejackb.com/2010/06/09/a-boy-named-mookie-2/) that sort of ties in with it.
Thirteen years ago one of my closet friends died. He is buried close to a little boy. I like to think that he has helped to take care of him.
@TheJackB Thanks... I think that sometimes we get given 'trials' that we can't understand (nor do we need to)...and I have seen someone's faith carry them through horrific times.
@StaceyMJCouturier @TheJackB I didn't know about your little angel Stacey! I'm so sorry!
@Lori @TheJackB thanks Lori
@TheJackB I love this: "someone almost always ends up being offended and it usually isn't me." LOL
It's funny how this discussion on free will questioned the existence and nature of God. That isn't in question for me - I'm there; me and God have a good relationship.I don't believe He is even upset about this blog post!
You raise a point that we didn't fully addressed when @DanielMWood brought it up; what about those unusual situations, magical combinations of events and serendipitous meetings? Maybe that's a whole other post!? I can tell you that my interest in free will sprang from one event such as these.
Next time you make boatloads of money and don't want it jack- just contact me! Are you positive that there wasn't something else in play - something the money gave you that you wanted, which made you attract money as a means to that end?
I'm sorry you have already lost some friends! Those things are hard to come to terms with and don't fit well into any construct. And maybe it makes you "older" than your years? It does seem to explain the heart of a poet I see in your writing.
Bottom line, I believe in free will too. Nothing else makes sense. What free will IS, though, seems beyond the scope of this discussion! You said there is no middle ground in deep religious discussions, but it seems we're all gravitating towards a middle ground here. I don't know! We joked about having the gloves on, but in all, so far at least, with the possible exception of @bcromlish (Yeah Bryan!) we really have been only shadow boxing.
@Lori I believe in G-d and I am most certainly a "practicing" Jew. But I don't believe that there is only one path but that is sort of separate to this. I could argue that I made all that money because I secretly wanted it, but I didn't go into a profession that guaranteed that sort of income. I fell into it so to me it was more of a bonus.
When I say that it is hard to find middle ground it is because there is a point at which theology diverges from each other. Some people talk about books/text that they find to be holy. However to others they are nothing more than fiction. There is no easy way to say that and quite a few people get upset when we do.
it is not my intent to offend so I am cautious about how I approach some of this.
As for experience, well they certainly have "aged" me in some ways.
@DanielMWood @bcromlish
You are a caring & sincere person to not WANT to intrude on someone else's beliefs. A lot of us in the name of 'God' sometimes push our own opinions too hard. I guess that is why in a place of business so often we hear the 3 topics NOT to be spoken of 'politics, religion & sex'.... haha
@Lori I think that it is smart and healthy to explore what and why we think certain things. As long as no one takes it upon themselves to proselytize I am good with it all.
BTW, I didn't take "aged" offensively. You can't go through some situations without being affected by them.
@TheJackB Ah Jack - I meant aged in a good way. I think I know what you mean about talking about theology. It's like we speak different languages. Plus I don't think you'd ever change someone's mind, which is OK since that's not our intent here. I don't think anyone was offended yet, at least I hope not. Shadow boxing isn't harmful to our health!
What I meant by "middle ground" was we seem more interested in finding common ground (I misunderstood you - sorry!). This is just such a great people-gathering of generous, loving souls.
Deep question Lori! I better go put my thinking cap on. I can't even think of a good joke to start this one off. You have me baffled. :-(
I can go two different ways with my response to this question. One will be really long and irrelevant. The other could be useful if the price of gold drops to 50 cents in the next half hour.
I believe we have been given the ability to make decisions that determine the outcome of our lives to a certain extent. We are given the ability to choose based upon a preset array of circumstances that are before us based upon the laws of the universe. These laws are can be boxed into the theories given by physicists or books like, The Secret, but ultimately they are determined by our response to situations that happened in our past. I think we have the free will to choose but it is only between a fixed set of circumstances that have been predetermined to get us to an expected end.
Following Jason's lead I will go to a parenting example. When I was a child my parents gave me a lump sum of money to buy Christmas gifts for myself and for my family. I could buy whatever I wanted with the money I was given (free will) but I couldn't exceed the amount I was allocated. They knew I was going to buy gifts (fate) but they didn't know I was going to spend most of the money on myself. :-)
If you believe in a higher power I imagine it to be the same. We are given an allowance to play with but we can only use it for the purpose it is given.
Does that make any sense? It sounded better in my head.
@Frank-A Spark Starts It is a deeper topic - sorry about that! But how can we talk about life and NOT talk about free will eventually!?!?
You say: "we have the free will to choose but it is only between a fixed set of circumstances that have been predetermined to get us to an expected end." So freedom but not exactly freedom. It's not easy to dissect this issue, is it?
Have you seen the movie? I'd love to hear what you thought of it.