Today we welcome Rula as our Guest Author! I love the way Rula brings the conversation to a deep and profound level here at Life, for instance. She blogs over here! Take it away Rula!
Have you ever taken shelter in thoughts that say something like: “Once I achieve/resolve/accomplish this one thing I’ll be happy”? Yesterday I found myself feeling anxious and began to plot the best way ‘out’ of this burden of anxiety. I heard a voice say, “how about those chips in the cupboard you’ve been saving – or perhaps a little wine?” I was tempted for a moment but then consciously and confidently replied, “No! That would be like treating an infection by forgetting there’s a wound!”
Instead, I took shelter in the thought that someday I would attain enlightenment and everything would be okay. Yes, recognizing the Light that emanates from within my Being is my dream, and for a few minutes I felt at ease in that dream which took me away from the only moment in which bliss can ever actually exist.
Soon my heart began racing again as my mind projected all kinds of fears and I realized that my thoughts were nothing but ‘comfort foods’ on which I indulge to feel temporary relief despite knowing that I’m bound to feel heavier and more burdened in the long run.
Why am I so unwilling to face the only moment in which Life actually exists? Why do I trade suffering NOW for suffering ‘later’ when ‘later’ always appears in the NOW? Why am I so psychologically unwilling to accept what simply IS as IS without searching for a way ‘out’?
I find it so strange that I postpone action in order to dream of action. I postpone my goal in order to revel in the dream of attaining that goal. But what do I actually do to make my dream come true?
Compulsive mechanical thoughts like the ones which project my fears put me out in the rain. They keep me drifting, homeless, and aware only of my narrow reality. Thought then attempts to shelter me from the false reality it created by again superimposing itself over the Present. So thought creates burden on one hand and tries to escape it on the other. Life is HERE and NOW, but I’m ‘then’ and ‘there’!
What would I realize if I faced the burden NOW and accepted the moment without judging or comparing? Is it possible that I’m already home? Am I a queen searching for her crown though she already sits on the throne? Am I combing the land for treasure I’ve been sitting on all along? Have I wandered from the shelter of my tree to take comfort in its shadow?
Do you take shelter in your thoughts? Does indulging in thought ever keep you from living your intended life in action?
photo credit: Linda Aslund
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love you post! Queens sitting on thrones searching for crowns! What a lovely way to put it. You pose so many questions in your article and I need to read it a few times to digest completely. Once I have understood it I'll let post again. But enough to say at present your words spoke to me, stung me not sure why yet but they have. thank you. muneeyra
@Muneeyra Hi Muneeyra! Welcome to Life, for instance! I hear what you're saying! I always have to read Rula's comments several times before I know how to respond! :-) Come back when you're ready and spend some time here!
@Muneeyra
I'm so glad you stopped by Muneeyra and that something spoke to you in this piece. I appreciate your lovely words and hope to hear from you soon! :-)
As such I do not see any problem in thinking but there’s a problem with thinking. (hahahahahah) if we really need to think we must think but not mechanically. It has to be intentional.
Thinking is an intellectual activity and not mechanical or emotional. Nor can thinking words determine ‘sensing’ ( if it is hot or cold or am I hungry etc). But most of the time we think mechanically, a center meant to take over an act and perform mechanically what we have learnt a hard way, intellectually. The energies meant for intellectual center is cruder and slow hence the process of learning is slow but once we have learnt by rote we can perform faster in a mechanical way. (For example driving a car once we have learnt and practiced a little).
Feelings are different than thinking and needs no thinking. When we think emotionally its basically a misuse of energies, a cruder center using up fine energies. In nut shell, our need to think is just a percent or so of what our mind tends to think most of the time mechanically or else emotionally and at times giving words to what we can only determine by sensing.
So, lets think but intellectually or possibly, as Rula will agree: thinking without thinking.
Yes, words can speak untruth, body cannot.
Yes, the body can't move forward or backwards in time. The body remains ever Present in the NOW. Perhaps this very fact is the reason behind Patanjali's creation of Yoga. If the mind can slow down enough to be totally aware of the body then mind moves in unison with the body which is always NOW...thus the mind has the potential to remain Present when it pays TOTAL attention to the body without drifting.
I find it a very useful exercise to try to sense the body and listen and look at one's surroundings both externally and internally (mind). The practice is to use the senses but without giving any importance or attention to the words that arise trying to describe or interpret what is seen, heard, or sensed.
If observe very keenly my own self I can see the gross extent of my verbalization of senses which are already known to me and need no verbalization or interpretation. For example, when I walk into a dark room my mind automatically thinks, "turn on the light" or it imagines me turning on the light. But my body already KNOWS it's dark and it has turned on the light to remedy the situation one hundred thousand times - it doesn't need this knowledge repeated in words in order to get the body to act does it? Why can't I simply walk in and turn on the light? It's as if my mind and body are fractured in space-time. My body is in space of notime (NOW) while my mind is in the space of time. If the Truth exists only in the Present moment, this fragmentation of mind-body then becomes a great obstacle to SEEING things as they ARE.
Well, I seem to have written an entire book just to say, "Yes Ashok I agree with you that 'Words can speak untruth, body cannot'" - I tell my daughter to watch carefully when she is eating. Feel/Sense her stomach because the body doesn't use words but just senses. Now listen to the mind, it is using words. What is your mind telling you? "Eat me I am yummy" she responds. What does your tummy feel like? "Well...a little full".
Eureeka Baby! ;-)
@rshin
Paradoxically, mind moves faster than the body in this physical world as mind is one dimensional that moves just in the physical time and body as you said moves in notime (Actually, have you ever thought that mind can travel faster than the light particles. Einstein was so wrong -ha! ha! ha! ha!-claiming that speed of the light is maximum speed any thing can travel- well, modern days physicist are otherwise trying to prove it wrong-)
‘switch on the light’ mind will reach faster than the body and ponounce the need and yet the body will not act because it isn’t in unison with the mind. I have practiced – and when I have succeeded- I found that body can sense the need and act but only when the mind doesn’t act as an obstacle. And Rula Mazigi Shin, know that one can sense better than words can tell you because what you sense IS and what you think is either from the stored data’s or else it is interpretetion based on certain concepts which again is some thing internalized along ago, part of our history, true or untrue, correct or incorrect..
And yes, our ‘body is in space of notime (NOW)’ what all we need to do is to stick to our body so as to remain in the realm of notime.
I read this title two ways. Yes, I escape into my thoughts sometimes, as you describe. For example, during a time I've set aside for meditation, I find myself thinking about meditation rather than meditating! But there are other thoughts that bring me out of that escape mode, that bring me to the present, that remind me that everything I need and want is right here, right now. Your question about taking shelter in thoughts reminded me of a lovely verse "He will cover you with his feathers. Under his wings you will find refuge." Thoughts that bring me into the perfection of the holy instant do feel like shelter. Thank you for this beautiful post.
@galenpearl Thought is an energy capsule, so far, it is intentional. But as you might have experienced, most of the time, it is of mechanical nature. And normally, it isn't us who thinks, its the thought that carries us away. More over, and at times, we think emotionally using up precious energies meant for 'feeling'.
You are right that we do need these energy capsule to generate sufficient drive to shoulder the burden of life rather than to use it as an escape, to transport us to a moment which is either dead or is assumed.
@galenpearl
Thank you for reading and for leaving your beautiful response. Yes, positive thoughts, feeling grateful for what one has instead of what one is lacking is always positive. :-)
"You have everything you need for complete peace and total happiness right now." ~Wayne Dyer. I try to remind myself of this quote all the time. It is so hard to live in this moment! Sometimes I feel like maybe we are all so "purpose-driven", like we feel like we aren't doing enough and we feel guilty if we try to just sit still and BE.
"Does indulging in thought ever keep you from living your intended life in action?" This is a great question you ask, and for me, I can say YES. I have tried to think of why this is, and what I've come up with is that sometimes, the thought of doing something is better than the actual action. I wonder if that is why I sometimes procrastinate - because whatever the the thing is, it may sound great, but what if it doesn't live up to my thoughts behind it? Then what - would I be responsible for this, and would I then have to change it and try again? Would that realization make me depressed? It is also scary to take action sometimes. And finally, if I take the action and don't feel fulfilled, I may then be forced to live in the moment, explore myself a bit more, and not rely on events to make me happy - and that can be difficult. Worth it, but not an easy task.
I don't know about the chips, but wine has seemed to solve some of my problems. Just sayin ;)
Latest blog post: A Personal Accomplishment: Warrior Dash!! The Play-by-Play
@Ali Mac @rshin Ali and Rula, what beautiful and UNIVERSAL sentiments you both express! Our ego minds always seem to be protecting us from some frightening unknown but when we allow ourselves to come back "home" to the present, again and again, we realize that we can handle whatever it is in THIS moment...the only real time there is.
@Sabrina at MyMiBoSo @Ali Mac
Hi Sabrina! You are so right that 'we can handle whatever it is in THIS moment" - we have to don't we? It's only when we project our fears that things seem unbearable...but when we are in the thick of it, in the NOW, we simply ACT. What choice do we have? So true! Thanks Sabrina :-)
@rshin@Sabrina at MyMiBoSo@Ali Mac
When we jump, and those who are keen observer knows, we jump from moment to moment and more intensely we observe and more we realize we drift not in seconds but in fractions and when we take this leap, we left the self we identify as ‘me’ behind. Helpless and for want of energies, this self suffers and if positive action is not forthcoming soon, this self, we identify as ‘us’ is bound to die a frustrated death.
The point is how long can we survive the mountainous present when impulses are compelling us to escape, when external stimuli’s are forcing us to find some escape route?
It’s not an easy task. And it’s not easy because we have a long history of escape and a long list of associations, the energy sources of our various selves who get energized and makes us drift from our goal. Bur as Rula said- ‘we have to don't we? What choice do we have?’
@Sabrina at MyMiBoSo @rshin Hi Sabrina! Agreed! Ego is so strong, and crazy how it becomes the "protector" (I like how you worded that.) Only when we acknowledge the ego and step aside do we see that things are not so scary at all, and then what is scary is that we outgrow it - which of course makes the ego shrink. We think it's doing us good sometimes, but it's really just puffing itself up to scare us into needing it. It's like a bad possessive boyfriend, that ego! ;)
Latest blog post: A Personal Accomplishment: Warrior Dash!! The Play-by-Play
@Carmelo @Sabrina at MyMiBoSo @rshin HAHA - Girlfriends too! We are all human! :)
Latest blog post: A Personal Accomplishment: Warrior Dash!! The Play-by-Play
@Ali Mac @Sabrina at MyMiBoSo @rshin Haha, I like that Alessandra! "A bad possessive boyfriend"! Well said!
@Ali Mac @Sabrina at MyMiBoSo @rshin "It's like a bad possessive boyfriend, that ego! ;)" Hahaha ... I wouldn't personally know that but I can imagine it's true! I certainly got the point. :-)
@Ali Mac
Ali I'm so happy that you've joined the discussion :-) xx ! The way you describe your experience really brings this conversation back down to earth to our everyday struggle with our thoughts and really what our thoughts eventually breed which is fear. "Whatever the the thing is, it may sound great, but what if it doesn't live up to my thoughts behind it?" I like the angle you've taken because it's yet another way that the mind projects fear to use as an excuse to escape NOW, to find another moment that is better than this moment. I have been a perfectionist all of my life, and the one thing I have learned is that perfectionists are BOUND for failure. In fact, at one point I became so afraid of doing something in an 'average' way (which to me was the same as failure) that I wouldn't even try or begin at all! Just imagine how many opportunities I must have missed out of my fear of failure. That is why it was, at least for me, "scary to take action sometimes."
It's interesting what you say about feeling guilty "to just sit still and BE". I wonder if even without any guilt can we sit still with ourselves without fidgeting? Without feeling boredom...without our mind clamoring for something "to do"? "Give me a book, give me tv, give me a daydream, give me a song...but give me SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT!" hahahaha
"If I take the action and don't feel fulfilled, I may then be forced to live inthe moment...and not rely on events to make me happy" - Well I guess it depends on what you mean by "action". What I mean by an ACT is UNDOING...undoing the mechanical thoughts, undoing the mechanical habits, the habits and thoughts that think and do on our behalf though we claim them as our own doings. For me, UNDOING is DOING in the real sense, everything else is just a happening, circumstances (though they may not seem so) that are out of our control because they move along the natural and enormously complicated chain of cause and effect.
We've talked about these things often and you always know how to relate what I sometimes find hard to verbalize back to tangible and practical life situations. As for the wine...well I have to admit that it goes really well with those deep talks! Not to mention that it helps us to laugh out those thoughts which plague us - yes laughter is a wonderful tool and that's one of the reasons I like hanging out with you so much Ali...yeah that's right, I'm USING YOU...sorry ;-) Seriously though, thanks so much for leaving your insight. I do have one question for you thought...how do you think one can go about "not rely[ing] on events to make me happy"?
@rshin@Ali Mac
The point is not ‘but what if it doesn't live up to my thoughts behind it?’ Because this thought it self is dragging you away from now? Its an impression registered deep some time in the past now rising from its grave in the shape of a thought which will cling and become you and pronounce-‘but what if it doesn't live up to my thoughts behind it?’. We doubt and we hope, one, a procreation of a dead time and the other a projection of this dead in an assumed time and both drags us away from being in the now. What maters is and as the quote reads-"You have everything you need for complete peace and total happiness right NOW." I emphasize on NOW. Where is the fear, where’s hope in now? Its just action and acceptance and extention of this moment into infinity.
You know that in the physical time, present has to undo the past from moment to moment. Don’t you witness the series of undoing of the present, of the past for its very survival? This is how and this is why we undo every thing that is past and every thing that is projection of the past. One can live in the present with the present using past not in the past but in the present. We do not have to go any where. We just UNDO every thing that carries us to past including our own mechanicality and personal history.
By the way, the mother of all perfection is to BECOME and rula, when we Become we go beyond dualistic concept of perfection/imperfection because then theres nothing to compare. Then, it just IS. And IS is real. Beyond any measurement. Beyond judgement.
Ali rightly said-who the heck is judging?! And what the heck is perfect?
@Lori @rshin @Ali Mac I really don't know if one can 'live' without dying. And these moments are so 'real', so beautiful when one dies in the very moment one rise from a dead moment rather than sticking to it. I wish I can die every moment as I rise to live in the one that IS.
@rshin @Lori @Ali Mac G I Gurdjieff said- man is plural. The great propounder of Yoga Patanjali, defining yoga, said- ' yogaś citta vṛtti nirodhaḥ', which means- Yoga is negation of the natural inclination of mind.
Selves, are procreation of impressions and suggestions and this is the reason we are all so full of contradictions. We do get into conflict when we start identifying with one particular self as against the 'legion' at any given point of time of start intending to become this self. Mind, the carrier of these contradictory selves tends to react to every 'thing' , these selves have built an association in the course of our interactions with the external as well as with certain moods, thoughts and desires. Now, we ( the self we intend to become) will have to win all the associations so as to neutralize them. In other words as you said-'...totally stripped from him and he is left bare and naked to witness the world in its most simple form...', thus one will attain 'inner unity' that is find a permanent self who in turn will merge with what IS becoming pure awareness as you said -'holding not a single assumption about any thing or any one - totally vulnerable to what IS?'
Yes, we need to learn to BECOME non-self.
@Ali Mac @rshin @ashok Thanks Alessandra! I'll check it out!
@Lori @Ali Mac
Well death of the self (which happens in physical death as well, but here the body remains, only the self one believes in dies...belief itself dies, ALL belief). Death of one's history, one's past associations, one's likes, dislikes, one's prejudices, one's judgments...what is left if one doesn't have the crutches of his predilictions, his personal and collective belief system to fall back upon, to indulge in, to compare himself and others with, to condemn or praise with, to be 'right' with, to complain with, to pity himself with...what would be left if his identity (which assumes the identify of the 'others') is totally stripped from him and he is left bare and naked to witness the world in its most simple form, totally sensitive to every sound, every movement, every color, every touch...totally innocent from within holding not a single assumption about any thing or any one - totally vulnerable to what IS?
I wonder. I remember Tolle saying something so beautiful in this regard once and I paraphrase: "If a man fights he must put a great deal of effort and from that effort create his energy swinging and flailing about. But in not reacting to him there is no effort, no imposition, one simply does nothing, stands aside...and yet in that non reaction there is great POWER, great energy." Again, paraphrashed. The energy of LIFE in the state of non-reaction. We need to undo the self. We have to die in order to LIVE. Sorry Lori, I was compelled to write and got a little carried away haha But truly I thank you so very much for this opportunity as it has brought back some Life into me...brought back my writing self. Thank you!
@Lori @rshin @ashok I want to say one personal note here about a great book I read. Don't let the title sway you. It is called "The Vegetarian Myth" by Lierre Kieth. I don't think it matters what your eating habits are - I think ANYONE who eats ANYTHING needs to read this book. She explains the process of life, death and the cycle of it in such a beautiful way and it opened my eyes to a lot of things, all while relating it to her personal experience. Our conversation made me think of it :)
Latest blog post: A Personal Accomplishment: Warrior Dash!! The Play-by-Play
@Lori @rshin @ashok Lori, very true!! ;) I am looking at this in terms of life in general - "a moment of life is also a moment of death" - whether it be our lives, the lives of a plant, an animal, or any other living being and form of energy. Life is fluid and although our minds associate things as events, past, present, etc. it is really an ongoing fluid motion of simultaneous creation and destruction, all connected, as @rula and @ashok say. Trying to see it on a larger scale, as a spoke in a giant wheel, helps me to not fear the possible uncomfortable thoughts of the "dying" aspect on an individual level. (But hey, I guess that's just the little story my ego tells itself to keep it safe, as a "self defense" mechanism. HA.)
Latest blog post: A Personal Accomplishment: Warrior Dash!! The Play-by-Play
@Lori@rshin@Ali Mac
You live only when you die. A moment of life is also a moment of death. The pesent survives by keeping on undoing moments from moment to moment in order to survive otherwise every thing will turn into history. We also live from moment to moment, walking step in step with the time like a parallel train moving on a parallel track, on which moves the train of physical time.
@rshin @Ali Mac We are okay with the living moment, but the dying moment really isn't fun at all, is it? ;-)
@rshin @Ali Mac I am happy dear 'you' simply refused to miss the underlying message in the following words '....the series of undoing of the present, of the past for its very survival? and so eloquently expressed the same in the mot palatable way-'The present cannot exist only as creation, but it must simultaneously exist as destruction. Destruction of past is creation of present which is destruction of past...so destruction and creation are ONE and the SAME MOVEMENT.' Yes, the process of dying from moment to moment has to continue if we want the process of living from moment to moment to continue.
@Ali Mac
"Don’t you witness the series of undoing of the present, of the past for its very survival?" - this is very interesting isn't it? The present cannot exist only as creation, but it must simultaneously exist as destruction. Destruction of past is creation of present which is destruction of past...so destruction and creation are ONE and the SAME MOVEMENT...it's truly fascinating, mind boggling...how can the mind comprehend such a thing using intellect or logic which is so limted? Well anyway, thanks for the reminder Ashok. One must die to one's self, one's identification with the past...this also means not interpreting or recording or registering any kind of experience in the present. One must die from moment to moment in order to LIVE from moment to moment. These words can't begin to make sense of such a reality, yet somewhere deep inside (wordless) I understand and KNOW that this IS what IS.
@Ali Mac
Yes...beautiful in fact.
@rshin "By the way, the mother of all perfection is to BECOME and rula, when we Become we go beyond dualistic concept of perfection/imperfection because then theres nothing to compare. Then, it just IS. And IS is real. Beyond any measurement. Beyond judgement." Well said!!
Latest blog post: A Personal Accomplishment: Warrior Dash!! The Play-by-Play
@rshin Haha - Use away!! :) And yes I totally agree with you that perfectionists are bound for failure!! Just like you, sometimes it can take me so long to start on something because I am scared (yes there's the fear again) of doing it wrong, or not "perfect," which is so funny, because who the heck is judging?! And what the heck is perfect? I don't think it exists, and if it did, it would be pretty boring! I see what you mean now by action - the "undoing" of the mechanical thoughts/habits. To make conscious the unconscious. Laughter is sometimes the only way out of this mess in our heads! At least we have that :)
As for your question, "how do you think one can go about 'not relying on events to make me happy'"? I think the answer lies in acceptance. Back to the Wayne Dyer quote - "You have everything you need for complete peace and total happiness right now" - it lies in the understanding that happiness comes from within, it is not extracted from what is on the outside. Now, to actually practice that...well, that's a whole 'nother story.....I think it takes a heck of a lot of discipline and hard work.
Latest blog post: A Personal Accomplishment: Warrior Dash!! The Play-by-Play
@Ali Mac
Yes, Wayne Dyer seems to have realized the potential of accepting what IS at a very deep level. It's funny how "understanding that happiness comes from within" doesn't take any doing, any effort, you know what I mean? It takes the undoing of misunderstanding. Just like to know what Love is one must undo all that Love it not. But yes...in practice what this mean is as you say, "a whole 'nother story" that "takes a heck of a lot of discipline and hard work."!
Sometimes we mistake comfort for happiness.
Latest blog post: History Is Written By The Victors
@Joshua Wilner/A Writer Writes
No doubt. How do you tell the difference?
Ephesians 3 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
You have to love Paul a roman lawyer, a religious scholar , a member of the chosen people, who said that in the end, that all his knowledge was worthless in the light of Gods love which surpass all knowledge.
The problem is that you started with a problem so all you can do is reinforce the problem by believing in the solution suggested by the problem. In other words if you believe in the solution then you must have believed in the problem,the problem is true to you .The solution does not make the problem untrue but true and the solution can only reinforce the problem , it may look like a solution but because it is material and passing away, it is really only a puff of smoke like a smoke screen . Could you imagine charging a machine gun position with only smoke as your protection from the bullets, it does not seem reasonable but we humans can believe pretty much any solution to our fear based problems. If the problem is not true then the solution can not be true either. So the only solution is that their is no problem if your goal is to come up with a solution.
You have to love circular logic. Not !
If you have no problems then what is going to motivate you to do anything ?
@johncharlesowens
"the only solution is that their is no problem" - and so it is spoken in a great nutshell...that is the very solution...there is no problem. But the mind seems eager to make every little thing into a problem doesn't it? Yes, if the mind conceived of the problem then that same mind cannot adequately resolve the problem...the solution has to come from a witness OUTSIDE of the one who conceived the problem to begin with. Wonderfully insightful!
@rshin@johncharlesowens
The problem is that there is a problem of no problem. And yet there’s a concept of hell and haven. There’s ‘ways’ claiming they alone can be show the path.
The truth is that truth can’t have a path. Opinions alone can have a path. Pathlessness needs no beliefs. It needs a walk unwalked as rula says. No religion, no scripture, no words, no gods.
@rshin I think I am beginning to understand . You think that I believe that fear is the opposite of love but fear is not the opposite of love but the absence of love. Like darkness is the absence of light . But when light comes their is no darkness .
1 John
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
@johncharlesowens
I "like" your post Ashok not because you say "I agree with Rula" but because I agree with Ashok haha. Love can't have an opposite (I can SEE this so clearly), and if it does how can it be Love? If Love falls on a scale then I can walk backwards and unlove or forwards and love more...which is like simultaneously walking on the scale of hate...less hate or more hate...is the lowest point on the 'hate scale' also the first point on the "love scale"? If so then I don't want this false 'love' in my life, this transient, fickle, impermanent, dualistic 'love'. We have to transcend all scales. Spirituality is not a 'thing' of the measurable world.
@rshin
1 Corinthians 2:14
"But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means."
I am speaking about spiritual things and not of things of the mind . Yet you can not understand or hear anything that I am saying . I can see very well the scales that are upon your eyes but I can say nothing except look for the splinter in your own eye and I will pray for Gods wisdom to come upon you Ashok Sharda.
@rshin@johncharlesowens
Every door that opens in the out side also opens inside. Every path that can lead to a so called ‘good’ from ‘bad’ can also lead you back from ‘good’ to a so called ‘bad’. As a matter of fact, good can only survive in this dualistic world if there’s a bad and the other way round. Love cannot be a path because this will then make love opposite of hate. Love has to be un-unlove and can only be found by undoing every dalistic paths, every thing that is not love. For ture love one will have to walk unwalked on a pathless path.
I agree with rula, in toto.
@johncharlesowens
Yes, Love is not an idea you are right. So what is a path? What constitutes a path? It's just a word but it implies a mechanical act of laying down a definitive set of bricks which one can follow - a set of rituals or rules or steps that one can repeat to arrive at some point. But as you say Love is the ineffable, un-namable, infinite non-idea. Love isn't a destination, it IS. GOD IS. There is no path to God as such. There is nothing but GOD/TRUTH/IS/LOVE (whatever one wants to call that no thing). So if "Love tells" then one is not Love but separate from it...who is telling whom?The one who IS is silent. Well, that's what I see anyway. Wonderful discussion John, thank you!
@rshin Love is truth and fear is always a lie an idea about love. Love is not an idea but a spirit and energy as quantum mechanics would say and we can become conscious of it, for it is our Father and Mother and we where designed to be in a conscious relationship with it. For love requires 2 two become one fear tells us that we are separate for all fear is the destruction of relationship but love tells us we are one.
@johncharlesowens
What he is pointing to is that one must go beyond logic. Logic is flawed. That is the point. There is no path, no way...because when you forge a way someone else is bound to forge a different way...but Truth isn't a matter of opinion is it? Is GOD (if that's what you want to call Truth) a matter of opinion? People seem to BELIEVE so. In that sense you are right, humans seem doomed to choose one path over another, ever missing the Truth which can never be rooted in any belief system. Therefore, the only way to KNOW for a FACT is to sense directly, rather than assume (which is what thought invariably does). I guess I sense somewhere deep inside that it is not possible for Truth to be a divided thing, for there to exist more than ONE Truth when there is only ONE moment in which ALL existense exists simultaneously destroyed and created. I guess it is man's lot to struggle and be in conflict with his own ego. I hope we evolve. I want to evolve.
@rshin nice circular logic . Good luck with that
truth most definitely has a path we humans only do what we believe to be true . will it be the path of love or of fear and by what means will you escape fear to chose love.
@rshin Yes that was my solution the witness from the outside and so I waited in silent anticipation to here what he had to say .I waited to here what he wanted me to do. In the end he did not say anything and he did not want me to do anything. However in the waiting I learned to know his spirit the spirit of love and was then able to love him with the very love that he first love me with and I learned that if I wanted to fully become this love I could not hide it from others but let them see it as well and yes "Before enlightenment chop wood and gather water. After enlightenment chop wood and gather water." The difference is not in what we do but by what spirit we do, We have been given only one choice in this life and that choice is to freely become the slave to love or remain the slave of the fear of death the ultimate lose of relationship and the foundation of all time based fear.
@johncharlesowens
Yes, though one cannot pay attention without use of the mind. It is the vehicle through which one becomes AWARE and pays attention. Thought is just a material product of the mind, it is not the sole function of the mind to think.
I'm not entirely sure how 'faith' and "discern[ing] good from evil" can set one FREE. I don't know that "spirit" is "beyond mind" either. When you say that there is a "spiritual origin of your thoughts" I do agree that thoughts can either be a product of thoughts which have come before it, that is one's history of thoughts and experiences...or a thought can be BIRTHED from NO THING...a true CREATION. But to birth a thought that is truly original one must not be influenced in any way by anything that is KNOWN - by any of one's history. Past is dead, nothing truly new or original can ever be born of a past impression...at least, that's what I feel. Again, it's one thing to think and talk (which I seem to be very adept at helplessly doing) and it's another to BE and in that BEING give birth to a creation through form using the timeless and infinite Source which is formless. Is that what you mean?
@rshin One thing that I would like to say about my experience of the interior life and that is that we are conscious of being conscious and this consciousness is not generated by thoughts .
In fact neuro scientice have no idea what it is or where it comes from . They would like to believe that it is being generated by the body or the mind but that is only a leap of faith at this stage.
So this consciousness is where you must spend time if you wish to fully become conscious and I know that you know this place and it is beautiful and it is you and it can never be touched by the mind the mind can only distract you from it. So as Carmelo has said it really is a matter of paying attention.
I find it so interesting that you can make statement like "I want to know the knowable unknown and this desire in itself keeps me from realizing the Truth. It's so strange don't you think?"
You see you are so very right the desire is only a confirmation of your unbelief only a solution to a problem let it go step into faith rest in that place and you will be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
and yes the mind will come into obedience and serve you well in those areas of life that it was designed for.
Joy and peace are waiting for those that are willing to train the mind to discern good from evil. Which is not based on a judgment according to the worlds knowledge but according to the spirit that is beyond mind. In other words you will know the spiritual origin of your thoughts weather they be of the spirit of love or fear. All we can do is resit them and turn to love.
@Lori @johncharlesowens
As for fear of the known or unknown I have to disagree with you on that Lori. I think that there is nothing more terrible or worse than living in fear. Fear strips one of the potential of knowing what LIFE truly IS. I find fear to be the greatest obstacle to BEING which is LIVING. I don't see how feeling ALIVE can ever exist in the moment when one feels afraid. Maybe it's something similar to what @Joshua Wilner/A Writer Writes is saying about mistaking comfort for happiness. Maybe we mistake excitement/thrill/adventure for happiness as well. But excitement always leads to boredom and vice versa as one cannot exist without the other. Again, these experiences lie along a continuum, a scale of time and comparison, a scale on which one will ever teeter and totter from up to down and left to right. Happiness on this scale depends upon lessening the degree of 'sadness' and the other way around. I don't know, but somehow I feel that LIFE and BEAUTY and PEACE and JOY (or whatever you want to call it) is more than this shallow kind of teeter-totter experience. There must be something deeper, something beyond these mind made scales of comparison and experience. What do you think Lori?
@Lori @johncharlesowens
You are such a positive person Lori and this is a wonderful quality to have. What you say is true. In fact, the ONE thing that I KNEW for a fact after being in college for a year or two is that the more I learned, the LESS I knew...to me this felt so paradoxical, so anticlimactic, and even disappointing. I thought that somehow I could finally find happiness if only I KNEW MORE. What I found instead was more questions, more ignorance in terms of 'knowledge'...that is to say, there is always more INFORMATION to be 'known', to be stored in the brain's memory system. What I began to realize only in a small way back then is that this storage of information is not what I have been looking for after all. It's not information at all which brings Peace or Joy. That is all I really know.
@rshin @johncharlesowens The more we know the more we know we don't know, right? That's a GOOD thing Rula! We may not "need" problems to solve to be happy in life, but mystery, and learning and exploring are all fun! That does make me agree with you that facing the unknown is fearful. Shouldn't that be fun?
I'm all with you on death being a part of life. How else could you explain everlasting life?
@johncharlesowens
"to freely become the slave to love or remain the slave of fear of death...the foundation of all time based fear" - Yes, I have to agree John. I wonder why we are so afraid of the one certainty in life? I wonder why we find it so difficult to see death as PART of LIFE, as opposed to its end. It must be partly in the genetic code of all living beings which nature does its best to ensure survival until procreation has occurred, caring not for the 'happiness' of creatures but only that they survive...and partly to do with the evolution of the thinking mind, the evolution of the psychological world and its perceived fear of the unknown. I am so afraid of feeling afraid, and that is so strange for me to admit. The truth is that I dont' know anything despite all these hundreds of words I am replying to you all with. I want to know the knowable unknown and this desire in itself keeps me from realizing the Truth. It's so strange don't you think? I feel so humbled.
@johncharlesowens
As for not having problems making one feel what...bored, unmotivated? Hahaha well why is it a problem to have no problems? Are you saying that LIFE is in the problem of living - that LIFE is a problem to solve as opposed to simply LIVING, simply BEING? What a strange thing when we have just realized that there is no problem to begin with! If Life is in the solving of a problem then living can only occur in the 'next' and we all know at our depths that there is no time but NOW. There is no LIfe but HERE and NOW. There is an old saying, "Before enlightenment chop wood and gather water. After enlightenment chop wood and gather water."